5Linx Gets Second Grant From COMIDA
The Democrat & Chronicle reported yesterday that COMIDA (which stands for the County of Monroe Industrial Development Agency and will be the subject of a story to come later here on the Water Buffalo Press) awarded a $600,000 grant to 5Link, a "telecom" provider based in Henrietta. The Henrietta Blog of the D&C praised the company for brining hi-tech jobs to the area, over 130 of them as reported. As I posted on the Henrietta Blog yesterday:
5Linx uses a business strategy called "MLM" or "Multi Level Marketing" to sell their "products;" what this essentially translates to is a Pyramid structure that recruits people to invest in a startup much like Tupperware or Cutco knives. They do not even sell their own products, they resell things like cell phone service and satellite tv. Much like the Fast Ferry founders and Maplestar, they receive millions in government funding and tax breaks under the guise that they will add "hundreds of jobs" only to see the C-level employees pocket the profits and split town. 5Linx currently employs 30 people and we are to believe they will add 130 in the next year through a work at home pyramid structure that forces their "employees" to recruit others? Neither COMIDA, nor Monroe County, nor the D&C, nor this so-called blogger have done their research and that is why our region continues to get swindled by moneymen who make big promises. Ever seen the Simpsons episode where the town decides to buy the monorail? - that's Monroe County and Rochester. Mark it down, 5Linx will never create that many jobs and despite what Maggie Brooks says in her photo "pat myself on the back for doing nothing" op this is not a company our area should brag about.
1/17/2007 4:55 PM
Another blogger, known as alocalbusinessman, posted that he has attempted to contact the HR department of 5Linx only to continually be routed into voicemails. Wouldn't a company poised to take on a massive undertaking such as the hiring of over 130 people at least need an HR department in place to oversee and train the employees?
But let's just say that 5Linx is legit and is as succesful as their C-levels would like us to believe, why then would they be in need of such a sizable grant from the government (the second such grant they have received)? One might answer to pay for the cost of the massive facility they are building in Henrietta, however, the building of the site was announced before the grant was received. By any measure, should our tax dollars be going to businesses so succesful that they expect better than 100% growth in the near future? Certainly a business so succesful would understand if we used 600,000 taxpayer dollars on something like education or our economically depressed City instead of a big fancy call center in a suburb that has no trouble attracting companies.
One of 5Linx claim to fame is the issue of Inc. 500 that names it as one of the fastest growing companies in America (based on projected hires that haven't happened yet), but even the magazine is skeptical about the methods employed by the company:
"What it does - Sells VoIP services and video phones to consumers and businesses through multilevel marketing. Why it's growing - The multilevel marketing model is designed to produce fast revenue growth. It also, of course, produces controversy in many cases. In 5Linx's case, CEO Craig Jerabeck says strong consumer interest in VoIP helps 5Linx sign up the direct sales representatives it needs to recruit."
There merits have come under the pretense of video-phone sales but an exploration of their website reveals that the basis of their business is the resale of cell phones, Dish TV and medical benefits cards. Last time I checked medical benefits didn't fit under the category of 'telecom.'
More to come -
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72 comments:
I guess facts really don't matter -- wouldn't want them to get in the way of making our point, now would we?
It will be apparent to anyone who investigates your claims in any detail that you are the one who has done no research.
Anyone interested in the facts on this can check my reply to his original post here: http://www.blogger.com/publish-comment.do?blogID=24010319&postID=116899257784843733&r=ok
Leaving aside his diatribe on whether the money should be spent in other areas, let me refute a few of his factual errors in the additional info he lists here:
1. Anyone who READS the Inc. 500 knows that it is a REVENUE-BASED list, not employment-based. Therefore, the claim that 5LINX made the list "based on projected hires that haven't happened yet" is just wrong. 5LINX made the list because its sales grew more than 400% between 03 & 05.
2. So let me get this straight: you went to the 5LINX website, saw products other than voip, and because of this concluded that the company's voip and videophone sales were a "pretense?"
Let me post the facts for any reasonable and logical people who may read your blog (although I doubt there are many): voip is 5LINX's #1 product by far. However, given that it is a technology company, 5LINX also sells cellular, satellite and internet. If you bothered to check, you would see that the Company offers significant savings to the customer in all of its product areas, which is why it is growing so quickly.
The medical savings card is offered because many full-time 5LINX reps no longer have low-cost health insurance -- and asked the company to provide an alternative. While this product is not insurance, it provides a level of benefit that satisfies the needs of many representatives and customers alike.
I again request that you get your facts straight before you post. Putting up info so easily refuted just makes you look ignorant.
Alas positive1, your refutations seem to be quite misleading as well -
To address your response on the D&C blog, I am not going to give any credence to figures from the DIRECT MARKET INDUSTRY that exclaim how profitable the DIRECT MARKET INDUSTRY is, where are you getting your numbers? Do you expect the industry (founded on the recruitment of others through fantastic claims of success) to say it is not profitable?
Secondly, my diatribe on why the money should be spent differently was the whole point; regardless, let's say 5Linx is as profitable as you say - why then would they need a half million in tax breaks to buy the VoIP which is supposedly their main product: http://www.monroecounty.gov/files/Communications/PDFs/comida_october.pdf
In response to your claims of savings, a reseller of Time Warner Cable and Dish TV can never offer prices below those of the provider. As far as phone service I have seen 5Linx plans that cost over $80.00 a month, I don't know anyone in today's society that thinks that's a good deal for your phone. You claim to be so logical and well-researched but I see no numbers to back up your claims.
As far as the medical card is concerned, your point that it is for employees only further shows 5Linx as a company making profits by selling items to their "direct sales reps," real companies who are concerned about their workforce tend to supply health care for them instead of swindling them for 'start-up' costs and then leaving them on their own to work the street for leads.
As for 70 years of Telecom experience, none of the founders are over the age of 45, I would be interested to know where the 70 years of experience comes from?
My guess - you are either one of these founders or a poor sap who has gotten mixed up with 5Linx.
Here are your comments and my responses in bold:
I am not going to give any credence to figures from the DIRECT MARKET INDUSTRY that exclaim how profitable the DIRECT MARKET INDUSTRY is, where are you getting your numbers?
I'm not surprised...those numbers don't support your point. The fact is that the Direct Selling Organization is highly respected at all levels, and is widely known as the most accurate in assessing growth in the industry. If you don't accept those numbers, then refute them! Post your own independently verified numbers.
Secondly, my diatribe on why the money should be spent differently was the whole point
I respect your right to disagree with the County on its priorities. If that was the whole point, then you should have stuck to it.
let's say 5Linx is as profitable as you say - why then would they need a half million in tax breaks to buy the VoIP which is supposedly their main product:
Please use common sense. Like any good business, 5LINX took advantage of a county program designed to help businesses grow. As Maggie Brooks said, this investment is being leveraged by over $6 million of private investment, which makes it a smart move on ALL parts.
In response to your claims of savings, a reseller of Time Warner Cable and Dish TV can never offer prices below those of the provider.
You continue to make claims that not only have no basis in fact, but are easily refuted. I invite anyone with common sense to investigate 5LINX pricing, particularly in cellular, and see for themselves (you'll see an average savings of $50 - $200).
As far as phone service I have seen 5Linx plans that cost over $80.00 a month, I don't know anyone in today's society that thinks that's a good deal for your phone. You claim to be so logical and well-researched but I see no numbers to back up your claims.
5LINX voip service costs $25/month. With taxes and fees, it's just under $30. It includes unlimited local & long distance calling to any phone in the US, Canada & Puerto Rico, as well as to any other customer of the service in the world. You don't see savings with that???
As far as the medical card is concerned, your point that it is for employees only further shows 5Linx as a company making profits by selling items to their "direct sales reps," real companies who are concerned about their workforce tend to supply health care for them instead of swindling them for 'start-up' costs and then leaving them on their own to work the street for leads.
I never said it is for "employees" -- you can't even paraphrase me correctly. I said that the company originally investigated it because our independent representatives needed a low cost alternative to insurance. I also said that it's a great product for "representatives and customers alike." Again, don't let THE FACTS get in the way of your rhetoric.
As for 70 years of Telecom experience, none of the founders are over the age of 45, I would be interested to know where the 70 years of experience comes from?
I feel like I am dealing with a child, but let me explain this simple point to you: first of all I said the 5LINX senior management has more than 70 years of telecom experience, not just the co-founders. Now, this piece of information may help you keep from making a fool of yourself in the future: when someone says that a group of people has xx years of experience at something, the way they arrived at that figure is to ADD UP their individual years of service. Get it?
My guess - you are either one of these founders or a poor sap who has gotten mixed up with 5Linx
I'm not a co-founder, but I have been a full-time representative in 5LINX for 5 years. I control my own time, earn more money than I ever did in government or the private sector, and, most significantly, have helped thousands of people improve their lives. Given that, which of us is the poor sap???
My suggestion: get a new hobby -- you're not very good at this one!
Gosh, positive1, I thought "full-time" reps would be considered employees but I guess that's just more of the pretty language thrown around to make people caught up in the pyramid feel like they're getting somewhere.
You're point about me not giving creedence to your statistics is assinine as the same reason could be stated for you to believe the stats. Why don't you post a paystub or a W-2 to verify these thousands you supposedly make? Oh, that's right, probably no accounting department at 5Linx either.
If 5Linx has only posted earnings of $4.9 million how are they investing $6 million in the community? Since you received a taxbreak from the county on the purchase of the VoIP will you be offering the same tax breaks to the conumers in the area? I'm know your answer will be no.
Again, you boast about savings but post no actual numbers to back them up, as far as the price for VoIP it can be had for pennies on the internet.
And please, post this wealth of experience the founders have that make up over 70 years in the telecom industry.
My responses are in bold:
Gosh, positive1, I thought "full-time" reps would be considered employees but I guess that's just more of the pretty language thrown around to make people caught up in the pyramid feel like they're getting somewhere.
Well, Swede, you thought that because you obviously don't understand business. By law, "full-time" reps are "independent contractors," not employees.
You're point about me not giving creedence to your statistics is assinine as the same reason could be stated for you to believe the stats. Why don't you post a paystub or a W-2 to verify these thousands you supposedly make? Oh, that's right, probably no accounting department at 5Linx either.
First of all, it's "your," not "you're." Secondly, I posted statistics from the Direct Selling Association (dsa.org), which is one of the largest and most respected trade associations in the world. You don't accept them? Fine -- post your own numbers that refute mine!
Thirdly, I'm sure you have no experience with this, but business owners don't get "W-2s." But, regardless, I can't post any documentation of earnings, because it's against the law. See, the government believes that people like you need to be protected, so it doesn't allow me to say anything about my earnings, because you may not realize that mine took work and are no guarantee of what you'll make.
If 5Linx has only posted earnings of $4.9 million how are they investing $6 million in the community? Since you received a taxbreak from the county on the purchase of the VoIP will you be offering the same tax breaks to the conumers in the area? I'm know your answer will be no.
Well, if you'd READ carefully, you'd realize that the $4.9 million listed in INC was for 2005. The company is significantly bigger now. And, I never said that ALL of the $6 million was from 5LINX. I said it was private investment. There are other parties, such as the builder, making investments as well.
As for "tax breaks" for "conumers(sp)," with all your spelling errors and limited grasp of business, it's hard to understand what you mean. However, if you're asking whether consumers will save money on our voip, it's already one of the lowest cost, legitimate voip services in the industry.
Again, you boast about savings but post no actual numbers to back them up, as far as the price for VoIP it can be had for pennies on the internet.
All right, I'll humor you. A few simple examples from Cellular: Today, on Cingular.com, the motorola razr phone is $49.99, the Krazr is $199.99, and the Cingular 8525 is $399.99, all after rebates. From 5LINX, those same phones, with the same Cingular service, are: FREE (razr - $49.99 savings); FREE (krazr - $199.99 savings) & $199.99 (8525 - $200 savings) after rebates. That's just examples from ONE carrier -- others are similar. Now I'm anxious to see how you turn the consumer saving between $50 - $200 on the same product into a bad thing. By the way, my numbers can be verified here.
As for voip, put your money where your mouth is: you post a LEGITIMATE voip service, from a reputable company, with full E-911 compliance and call quality comparable to a land line, that retails for "pennies."
And please, post this wealth of experience the founders have that make up over 70 years in the telecom industry.
I would post specific names and tenure if I thought you responded to logic or facts. However, it's obvious to anyone reading that you're not a reasonable person. So, I have no desire to expose these individuals to your inaccurate rants. All I'll say is that the 5LINX CEO, the Director of GlobaLINX, the Senior Network Engineer, and the Director of Customer Service for GlobaLINX have about 70 years of combined telecom experience, all with local companies.
Look, I'm really tiring of you. As I said, you're not very good at this, as your aversion to anything that does not support your point of view, even if it's true, is obvious to all involved. I have no need to waste any more time here -- our posts speak for themselves.
Positve1:
I'm a bit confused. If you pay yourself a salary why do you not have a W2? Don't you withhold taxes?
I create one for myself, as my accountant wouldn't have it any other way.
Just wondering.
positive1 -
It just gets worse for you buddy.
1. I apologize for the mispellings, I didn't know I wasn't allowed to do so on my own blog.
2. I checked out your dsa.org and I want to thank you, it gives many tips for identifying possible MLM scams, one of them being that the company is not a member of the DSA. A quich search of the DSA member list reveals that 5LINX IS NOT A MEMBER OF THE DSA. (Can't wait to hear the excuse for this one, probably another server problem)
3. As far as a reputable company offering cheap VoIP there's a little group called Google (ever heard of them) that offers free VoIP for GoogleTalk users.
4. As far as your experience claims, if you want to include Jeb Tyler's job selling phones at a Verizon store on Monroe Ave. then fine, I'll let you have that one.
5. And the ghost of hst took care of your W-2 excuse.
6. No story has been posted by WHAM 13 since the 16th of January.
Even more -
From wfdsa.org, the website for the World Federation of Direct Selling Associations:
'WFDSA - Search Results
Membership Directory Search Results
Your search did not return any record. Please go back and try again.'
Responses in Bold:
I'm a bit confused. If you pay yourself a salary why do you not have a W2? Don't you withhold taxes?
I create one for myself, as my accountant wouldn't have it any other way.
I make estimated tax payments. And, as a business owner, I'm sure you know that there are several ways to receive compensation -- 1099 income being just one example.
As for you swede, you make me laugh! Google talk requires a computer & microphone, another user who also has all that equipment, cannot call regular phones, and has no e911 compliance. Real comparable to what 5LINX, Vonage & Time Warner offer! (that's called sarcasm, by the way)
And don't think I didn't notice the reference to Jeb. It's good to know that this is personal.
Isn't it "lights out" @ the halfway house by now???
Positive1: Another question.
"I make estimated tax payments. And, as a business owner, I'm sure you know that there are several ways to receive compensation -- 1099 income being just one example."
Are you a contractor within your own company? Seems a bit odd. If that's not the case then your Company would be the recipient of a 1099 (from 5linx or other sources) and thus you still need to pay yourself in some manner.
What about NYS Sales tax payments?
Are you a contractor within your own company? Seems a bit odd. If that's not the case then your Company would be the recipient of a 1099 (from 5linx or other sources) and thus you still need to pay yourself in some manner.
What about NYS Sales tax payments?
By law, corporations do not have to be 1099'd. My method is sound - my CPA was president of the local CPA chapter, and specializes in working with small businesses. I also have a real estate business in another state, and my CPA there has approved of it as well.
Regardless, the fact -- which seems to constantly get ignored on this site -- is that, as I indicated, income claims in mlm are illegal. It's one of the most regulated professions in America.
As for sales tax, 5LINX pays that where required on all sales.
positive1 -
Income claims are illegal if you are attempting to recruit a "direct sales representative" and use claims of high incomes to do so; the reason, because the only high incomes occur at the highest levels of the pyramid and are not indicative of the incomes received by most "downlines." The law is in place to protect impressionable industry newcomers from big promises from people like you, please don't feel like you have to protect me - I don't think anyone posting here is interested in working for you.
That being said, positive1, feel free to post whatever you deem vital.
I can't help but notice you have not answered why the DSA.org, who you have referred to in multiple posts at the ultimate authority on the direct selling industry, does not recognize 5Linx as a member. Is it because of the strict code of ethics to which the DSA makes its members adhere?
Maybe I should clarify.
Who is responsible for the collection of the taxes?
P.S. I noticed alot of Jesus around the 5linx website.
Marketing or Recruiting?
Maybe I should clarify.
Who is responsible for the collection of the taxes?
P.S. I noticed alot of Jesus around the 5linx website.
Marketing or Recruiting?
I have no idea what you mean by "collection of the taxes." We are all independent contractors. 5LINX reports our income to the IRS and we file taxes as is dictated by the structure of our business (individual, partnership, corporation, etc.).
As for sales tax, as I said, it is charged and collected where required by law by 5LINX or the carrier we market for, depending on the product.
As for your comment about "Jesus," I don't know to what you're referring, unless it is the area where leaders tell their own story in their own words. Obviously, the few individuals who mentioned Jesus did so because he's an important part of their lives. Is there something wrong with that?
Look, you seem like a fairly reasonable person. As such, you should know that you can find fault with anything if you take things out of context, tell half the story, or don't bother with the facts. I'm sure I could do so with your business if I had such an agenda. That's what this guy is doing, as should be obvious to you by his failure to respond to -- or even acknowledge -- the facts I've posted.
But that doesn't change the fact that the jobs 5LINX promised ARE being created as we speak, and it will become one of the major successes of the COMIDA program. And this guy will look like more of a fool than he already does for suggesting otherwise.
And speaking of you, swede, as amusing as it has been peeking into the life of someone deprived of oxygen at birth, I've got to get back to the real world. That means life outside that nice, big building with the rooms with the padded walls and little men in white coats where you live.
Feel free to play on the computer whenever you want, but please, PLEASE, for everyone's sake, don't stop taking that medication again!
Positive1:
Sorry for flogging a dead videophone, but when a product is sold, who collects the appropriate taxes for that item? From what you said 5linx pays the taxes, so when money changes hands does it go through you or directly to 5linx.
As a business owner, such as yourself, I am responsible to recieve taxes on products and services (when applicable) and then pay to the State the appropriate amount. Many of my clients, however, have Resale or Exempt status.
The Jesus stuff just seemed a bit odd. Not often do you see bios of that nature in the corporate world. But as you have said this is a marketing structure so perhaps it is the norm. Perhaps it in itself is a marketing tool to gain a greater representative base? Whatever floats your boat.
Any chance your former 6 figure government job placed you in a position to influence County support for this venture? Provided of course such public service had local and/or partisan ties.
I suppose The Handsome One's attention on the topic is fairly new (at least to me). But you too seem to have been "playing" on the computer for quite some time (Aug. '06) pushing the 5linx platform online.
Feels like a game of Clue.
Was it the SVP of Spin, in Henrietta, with the videophone?
Sorry for flogging a dead videophone, but when a product is sold, who collects the appropriate taxes for that item? From what you said 5linx pays the taxes, so when money changes hands does it go through you or directly to 5linx.
As a business owner, such as yourself, I am responsible to recieve taxes on products and services (when applicable) and then pay to the State the appropriate amount. Many of my clients, however, have Resale or Exempt status.
I don't know that I can state it any more plainly than I did in my last post, when I said:
"As for sales tax, as I said, it is charged and collected where required by law by 5LINX or the carrier we market for, depending on the product."
What's difficult to understand about that?
The Jesus stuff just seemed a bit odd. Not often do you see bios of that nature in the corporate world. But as you have said this is a marketing structure so perhaps it is the norm. Perhaps it in itself is a marketing tool to gain a greater representative base? Whatever floats your boat.
Yep...that's what we teach in 5LINX scammer school...pretend to love Jesus -- that'll get you a lot of reps in this day and age.
Any chance your former 6 figure government job placed you in a position to influence County support for this venture? Provided of course such public service had local and/or partisan ties.
Yes....The County gave the builder of 5LINX's new corporate office $700k because I used to work for a government that county leadership generally despised. You solved the case, Monk!
I suppose The Handsome One's attention on the topic is fairly new (at least to me). But you too seem to have been "playing" on the computer for quite some time (Aug. '06) pushing the 5linx platform online.
If by "pushing the 5LINX platform" you mean posting the facts in response to a person who posted lies about the Company to serve his own agenda (sound familiar?), then yes, I posted for a few days in August, then again recently. So what?
Alas, as it was then, my work here is done...I'll leave you and swede -- two champions of...whatever...to play with each other.
God Bless!
(well, did it work? Do you want to join now?)
I'm in.
Where the hell is my checkbook?
Who do I make it out too?
What's the MSRP of the SVP position?
Do I get a complimentary videophone? I gotta have one.
How did you know I have self-diagnosed OCD?
Now that I'm in, I'd like to help out with a suggestion. We need a spokesperson. Is Tom Bosley available? What about Dick Van Patten or those midgets (pardon me, Little People) in S.FLA that hustle real estate tapes. Someone that can really move the GinsuPhone.
Found the checkbook, its in the mail.
The head of 5linx, Craig Jerabeck, owned a company in Rochester called @wireless. Do you know what happened to that company positive1? He was reselling other phone services through 5linx and had an exclusive contract with Verizon. Guess what? Verizon called him a fraudulent dishonest conartist and yanked the contract putting 20 employees out of a job, almost bankrupting 75 franchisees who believed and trusted in him and almost destroyed his family. Luckily Verizon didn't hold the franchisees responsible for this sloth and gave them direct contracts or 100 more would have suffered. I dare you to investigate that positive1!
The only information we have found regarding the Anonymous claims above is from part of a D&C article from October '06:
"@Wireless shut down last year, citing an inability to collect its bills, after a dispute with Verizon Wireless."
If Anonymous could provide the Press with additional info it would be greatly appreciated.
More to come -
In the spirit of full disclosure I am a 5Linx Independent Marketing Representative that happened upon this post via Google alerts.
Maybe the good citizens would prefer more great companies such as Delphi moving into your great city?
"Delphi, the nation’s largest auto parts manufacturer, filed for bankruptcy. The company’s 12,000 retirees and 34,000 active workers who have spent their lives on hot, noisy production lines, making everything from air bags to instrument panels, are left staring at a future without pensions or health care." http://www.pww.org/article/articleview/7891/1/290/
Labeling 5Linx a scam with such malice and bias at best invalidates all of your opinions and conclusions. At worst makes you an ignorant trouble maker waging baseless attacks via "YOUR" blog with only one clear intention and that is to feed your own miserable ego.
Perhaps your clear idolization of a misguided literary legend has deadened the nerve endings. "I hate to advocate weird chemicals, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone... but they've always worked for me" That would be the tagline from the movie that your blog is named after.
I would like to identify Delphi and companies like that are the true scammers.
I did a tremendous amount of due diligence in making 5Linx and the direct sales industry a career choice. The industry has been it's own worst enemy yet like any other is maturing because of traditional business people like myself who have been deceived by corporate America, ie Enron, Delphi etc.
With 5Linx I was able to look the man who made the decisions in the eye unlike CEO Robert “Steve” Miller who declared it necessary to sweeten the 21 top executives’ pay packages, already worth an average of $1.1 million each WHILE Delphi was in bankruptcy.
The Industry and 5Linx has offered me and many of my displeased and displaced co-workers a solution to put our family’s future at the center of our career. At the end of the day my customers know me and the service I provide. 5Linx’s choice to partner with fortune 500 companies played a big roll in my decision. I become the competitive advantage in the equation. My friends and family know the level of service I provide them and the choice becomes self evident. Do business with the kid down at the mall or a trusted friend or family member.
Over zealous marketers and companies for sure have made a bad name for the industry, but those of us migrating here from corporate America view that as opportunity for cherry picking. Bad marketers in the mlm industry and corporate America have created a class of consumer aching for quality service and competitive pricing.
Business is about strategy not tactics. All of a sudden I am doing the same thing I was doing before-serving others. Now I do not have a top heavy corporate machine above taking all the cream off the top. In this equation if we do our job properly we will have customers for life, regardless of what company files for bankruptcy.
My point to all of this is not the merits of 5linx or the industry. My point is or better my question is - are you part of the problem or part of the solution? I really am not even sure why this blog exists and who actually reads it other than the one I mentioned above.
What are you doing to bring jobs to the region? You remind me of the men of old who where afraid to venture to "edge" of the world for fear they would fall off...
Out of ignorance and historical lies perpetrated from the table cloth.
Sincerely,
Edword Walczyk
P.S. As you can see I am not afraid to sign my name or identify my relationship with the company.
P.P.S. I am curious as to the identity of the ghost of hst… It seems a bit suspicious that those are also the initials of the above mentioned literary legend. You wouldn’t be responding to your own post would you; maybe you both are in collusion?
My suggestion to you non business types dont comment on what you clearly don't know. It only makes you look foolish and embarrasses your family.
Edword,
Thank you for visiting the Water Buffalo Press. Your comments are welcome and greatly appreciated.
I assure you that the ghost of h.s.t. is not affiliated with the Press, though I understand you have no reason to belive this statement.
Thank you also for information regarding Delphi, it is a great aid in our efforts to illustrate the bloated nature of our economic and political climate.
Now regarding your points:
-I can use bias here, it's my site, that's the nice thing - I have as much freedom to be skeptical of 5Linx as you do to work for them.
-Yes, I LOVE drugs and alcohol.
-In response to the rest of your argument all I can do is refer you to my most recent article entitled "Find the Red Queen" in the archives, and to other sites like the Democrat & Chronicle blog, and RochesterTurning.com, both of whom are listed in the Links column of our homepage.
Thanks for reading.
Edword the Guru,
I can confirm that I am not in cahoots with Water Buffalo Press or the swede. A matter of chance with reference to HST. Although maybe an influence to both, one could understand your conclusion that I or he/she is the same person.
I assure you this is not the case.
I have used the HST reference for the better part of a year and have to say that you are the first to acknowledge is presence. Kudos.
Our writings styles are rather different (the swede and I) as I believe I was the first to open up with the midget comment, as I suspect the swede may refain from using such crass terminology. I could be wrong.
"I really am not even sure why this blog exists and who actually reads it other than the one I mentioned above."
Yet you have found yourself here. The blog has been here for a week and a half, maybe?
I can assume that others from 5linx have read the swede's critique as well.
Maybe not from Google Alerts but Positive Alerts.
As much as people love to bash local news reporters -- THIS is why they are so necessary. I know that two reporters with different organizations were checking out rumors about 5Linx and the company checked out. Neither reporter wrote a piece because there were no issues. Leave it to the blogosphere to go off half-cocked and spewing baseless rumors. Hate the local news, but sure beats the online rumor mill.
Yeah you're right - quotes from 5Linx employees, Monroe County representatives and cited info from the DSA website is completely baseless - why do I even bother?
It sounds like neither of the news publications you refer to bothered to check on DSA membership, but don't worry, my most recent article addresses the issue.
About a year ago, I was invited to a MLM marketing presentation for a company that sold VoIP and related products. I don't remember the name of the company now, so I can't be sure if it was 5Linx or not (although that name does ring a bell).
I was out of work at the time, and I was offered an opportunity to join the exciting new world of "direct marketing", so I went to the presentation. I suppose it was my fault in the first place that I didn't ask more questions about what "direct marketing" meant. The presentation was for people who had already signed up, and also for potential recruits, like myself.
These guys do give great presentations. You have to give them credit there. They were polished, they were enthusiastic, and they heavily trumpeted each one of their success stories and implied that level of success could also be yours in a short period of time!
It was easy for me to see that this wasn't anything I wanted to be a part of, and pretty easy to see that my success depended upon recruiting new people more than it depended on selling the products. Since I am not a lawyer, I can't tell if this offer indeed met the definition of "pyramid scheme", but I know some basic math, and that the earlier you get in on the scheme, the more revenues come your way.
The slick presentation didn't sway me, I had seen enough after about 15 minutes. But I dare say there were many people in the room who were (or became that day) true believers, and were willing to buy into the scheme.
The lesson here is that people need to be better educated against this type of thing. Its easy to fall for a slick presentation. Its easy for people not to be able to understand the math (which indicates that people who come in late have fewer opportunities to make money than the people who come in early). So thank you, Water Buffalo Press, for bringing up this issue and not letting it die.
Thank you for your support - I hope you explored the January archives for the additional articles on 5Linx, including the Find teh Red Queen series and Are We Supposed to Feel Better, question still remain about 5Linx and LeFrois Development and the WBP will continue to monitor the situation in the coming year. Check back soon, as we are working on a story and petition regarding 5Linx most recent application for Empire Zone benefits.
I checked the entries in my calendar and, yes indeed, I did attend a presentation by 5Linx in July of 2005, at a hotel across from MCC. As I said, about 15 minutes into the presentation, I felt this was a suspect way of doing business. And from what I read here at The Water Buffalo Press, it appears that they haven't changed their modus operandi.
I can remember years ago on a Rochester radio station, one of the hosts of the show had bought into the MLM vision heavily. She was convinced she was going to get rich, and her co-hosts tried in vain to convince her that this was a scam. I have no idea if she got rich or not.
The lesson to me of all this is that there is almost a never-ending supply of people who will buy into MLM. Slick marketing overwhelms common sense. Maybe I should have invested...nah...just kidding.
I wish I knew what the solution is to this. If people could see the entire set of statistics about everyone who bought into MLM and exactly how much money they made, I bet that might make a difference. Perhaps we need to legislate that direct marketers have to provide this information voluntarily with any sales pitch. Truth in advertising -- what a concept!
I will be following this story closely here at the Water Buffalo Press, and I have added your RSS feed to my feed-list. Thanks again. (P.S.: I stumbled across your blog after reading a brief article at RochesterTurning)
I also wanted to comment on the comment here by 5Linx employee Edword Walczyk on Jan 25. These comments sound very much like the presentation I heard from 5Linx, filled with non-sequitur logic based upon the idea of a contrived duality. The contrived duality fallacy is when you make it seem like there are only two choices, and since one choice is clearly bad, the other choice is the one you should take. Of course, in reality, there are much more than two choices, and so there there is no logical reason to accept the 2nd choice, which may be good or it may be bad but you can't tell from the data presented.
Edword Walczyk says: "I would like to identify Delphi and companies like that are the true scammers." The apparent conclusion is that because Delphi is bad (I agree), therefore 5Linx is good (I don't agree, there is no evidence presented in favor of this).
Edword Walczyk says: "With 5Linx I was able to look the man who made the decisions in the eye unlike CEO Robert 'Steve' Miller who declared it necessary to sweeten the 21 top executives’ pay packages, already worth an average of $1.1 million each WHILE Delphi was in bankruptcy." Apparent conclusion: Delphi bad (I agree), therefore 5Linx good (I don't agree, there is no evidence).
Edword Walczyk says: "My point is or better my question is - are you part of the problem or part of the solution?" Apparent conclusion: you bad (I don't agree), therefore 5Linx good (I don't agree).
Edword Walczyk says: "Over zealous marketers and companies for sure have made a bad name for the industry, but those of us migrating here from corporate America view that as opportunity for cherry picking. Bad marketers in the mlm industry and corporate America have created a class of consumer aching for quality service and competitive pricing." Once again...yes, some very bad marketing practices exist (I agree), therefore 5Linx good (I don't agree).
See the problem here? The only thing that makes 5Linx a good company is the policies they follow and the products they sell. Edword Walczyk makes some allusions to these policies and products, but he doesn't come right out and tell us what business practices 5Linx follows and why their products are good products. Comparisons to Delphi or anyone else don't automatically make 5Linx a good company.
The business model that I saw when I went to the presentation left me with very little confidence that this was a company that I wanted to be a part of, so I left.
I am glad that Edword Walczyk has found a company that "has offered me and many of my displeased and displaced co-workers a solution to put our family’s future at the center of our career." That's very good to hear that it works for him. (Except he doesn't actually say it is working for him ... he just says 5Linx offered him a solution...)
I would still like to see statistics about all of the people who signed onto the 5Linx program and paid their $$$ up front -- how many made money, how many lost money, what were the average profits and more importantly, what were the median profits. If I want to invest in any stock or mutual fund, I can get all the information I need about their past and current investment results. I would like to see 5Linx come forward with similar information. Only if their data was complete and supported the hypothesis that people do indeed profit at 5Linx, would I ever consider investing (and even then, I would still look around for better/safer investments first).
It is assumed that earnings figures for 5Linx employees exists somewhere as Maggie stated in her press conference that the jobs created would be "high-paying" but requests to the County for that information have yet gone unanswered.
The only defendents of 5Linx on this site have been Edword, whose argument was soundly refuted by dj paige, and positive1, aka William Faucette - founder of the 5Linx Millionares Club and the top of the pyramid. Why are these the only defendents? Because these are the only people making money.
want to talk to you email me
informationforyou5x@yahoo.com
my neighbor asked me to go to a five linx meeting tonight.
What do they do at the meeting, and why wouldn't I just buy something off their website?
At the 5Linx meeting I attended, it was a slick but high-pressure attempt to get you to sign up (or invest) to become a "member" of 5Linx. You pay cash up front to become a "member". I don't think "member" is the word they use, but after you pay up front, then you are entitled to sell their products, which of course leads to $$$ for you in commissions (I have no objection to this part if you want to be a salesperson and if you feel these are good products to sell), but you also will find out that you can also earn lots of money by signing up other people to become 5Linx "members". In fact, as I recall, you can make lots more money by signing up new "members" than you can by selling the products. This recruiting of new members is the part I object to, as it seems like a pyramid scheme, and I felt it was unworthy of my time to consider 5Linx for employment.
Also, as I said here, they will make a lot of slick arguments that are in fact non-sequitur (that means the conclusion doesn't follow from the premise) contrived duality (they want you to think in terms of only two choices, instead of seeing the many possibilities that exist). Please click that link and read it before you go.
If you still decide to go, be alert for these types of non-sequitur arguments. One that I remember is the following. They tell you that you will never get ahead by working at a traditional company, you can't be your own boss, so that's why you want to sign up with 5Linx, where you can be your own boss and determine how hard you want to work and how much money you earn. Now, I believe that you can get ahead at a traditional company, but more importantly, even if you want to be your own boss, there are many choices, not just 5Linx, and many other marketing and business models, that are not the 5Linx Multi-Level Marketing model (in Paige-speak, the 5Link marketing model is a “pyramid scheme” even if it may not meet the legal definition of a “pyramid scheme”).
Finally, read this critique of Multi-Level Marketing.
So to become a member, I would have to pay $499.00, does anyone know where that money go?
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that money go to the recruiter and their higher up as bonuses (for recruiting people). A large percentage goes to the top of the pyramid...
So at the bottom of the pyramid, there's no bonus. Why is the bonus important? Well, if you put in $499, and pay $9.99/mo to use the website, and a fee to use the facility... over a period of 1 year, you would have to put in $878.88 (not counting the cost to travel to conferences, meetings, etc.) The rep at the bottom of the pyramid would have to get more than 183 customers (or services) to break even. Bonuses help the reps break even faster, at the expense of newer recruits' $499. The person on the top of the pyramid is harvest money as each new reps join.
Please keep in mind that this business work well with warm market (friends, family, referrals). It's hard to sell to people you don't know because they wont trust what you're saying; they don't know you. So do you know 181 people that will buy the service in order for you to break even? Don't forget the amount of time you must use to sell the service. To make tons of money is another matter.
Basically, everything presented sounds so good, as long as you don't do the math and think. They fail to tell you the important information, like how this business really works; all they want is to know if you're in or not. After $499.00, you might notice something that sounds wrong... you're pretty stuck until you at least break even. At that point, you would have probably involved other people, including those you care for... The story goes on, eventually, there will be someone who will work really hard and still lose some money.
You can still make commission on the services that you sell, but at the bottom of the chain, you're only making 1-2% of the service. Who pays you more, corporate (as an example) or this company?
And you're not really your own boss either, there will always be someone barking down you neck to "motivate" you to recruit new people so you (and your higher up) can hit the bonus (and not including the stress on yourself to break even)!
They tell you, the market will never be saturated to the point where we will see the above mentioned problem, but it WILL. Is this what the government wants for its citizen? For a few who control this company to make money at the expense of MANY others IN OUR COMMUNITY? And our tax money?
DO YOUR RESEARCH!!! And please keep us posted. This is a concern.
I am a former employee of @Wireless. The company pulled so many scams it made me want to puke. It makes me feel even worse that again, Craig Jerabeck and his cronies have duped someone into giving them something for nothing.
I'd be happy to supply anyone who wants with specifics. email me, tivodan1116 AT Yahoo Dot Com
Thanks.
Unfortunatly, last night I was coerced into going to a little "seminar" my friend was having at his house (and I didn't even get a free meal!!!), and it would seem that my exact opinion on it was already stated by dj_paige in his first post, so that saves me some trouble.
Unlike him however - I stayed for the entire thing to avoid being rude to my friend who unfortunately got sucked in (I've got a ton of stuff to print out for him now). But still, at around 15 minutes in I was checking to see if the window next to me was locked or if I would just have to bust it out..
I put on a good show for them though - i smiled enthusiastically (or so they though) - but I was really just laughing at the idea of this "pyramid scheme".. I even made a joke to my other friend who came with me (who sent me this link) about their logo - flip it upside down and the V becomes a pyramid, and the 5 links become a grin because theyre laughing at the people who buy into it.
I especially liked their point about how revolutionary VoIP (they sound it out - which I couldnt stand either) is... And it is, or should i say, was, like 12 years ago. Throughout the presentation I couldnt help but to keep thinking about NetMeeting, a nice little VoIP tool that came with Windows since Win95 (free of course)... So with a webcam (which'll cost you $9.99 retail [newegg] w/ a built in mic) and pre-existing internet service, you got yourself video phone for free!
God only knows how much that (by the way - very tacky looking) video phone they have costs, but you still do have to have an internet service (more $ than a cheap phone line). I suppose it could work for them because they sell "discounted" services like that.. But at the seminar I went to - a big point they were making was talking to relatives in distant countries and such, and i really doubt argentina has comcast..
and ok, I understand that, yes, it can work for you. But you really only get out of it what you put into it - and, as said and thought by many others, things like this take a lot more effort then the trickees realize - hell they dont even mention the subject of selling things to people, only recruiting.
Point is, babbling aside, these things are laughable. I'm 20 years old - didnt finish college - and i already have a job paying 40k/year doing nothing with a free blackberry (which I only mention because one of the speakers made it a big point that 5linx gives you free stuff all the time - and the bently, they would not shut up about the bently!)..
I'm honestly glad I got exposed to this, because up until now I've only seen these things in tv and movies from the 90s...
I was invited to a 5linx meeting yesterday and it SCREAMED pyramid scam. They prided themselves upon advertising a product which, in my eyes at least, seemed virtually obsolete compared to similar PC software programs. As far as I know, voIP has been around for a while and this company sports the name tag like it is fresh news. Things like Net meeting have already existed for quite someitme and do virtually the same thing. Also, as cited earlier on this page, it seemed more like they were pushing the advertisement of non relevant products and services more than anything else. What does a health benefeits package have to do with voIP? Basically this whole thing seems like one giant scam. And who ever that woman is who supports them, it was either maggie or melanie, she pushes these presentations through Charisma with very little factual information to back it up. At the meeting I attended, there was a caption at the bottom of the screen on the powerpoint presentation. I asked her to read me what it says and she told me that they would get back to it after the conclusion of the presentation. I waited through the whole hting and when I approached her to ask about it again, she responded that she had already packed up the equipment and that the small print was nothing to worry about.
real trustworthy people.......right?
what a joke
I would like to thank everyone for their continued postings. The summaries of presentations have given valuable insight into how this "business" actually operates.
The WBP is currently working with PyramidSchemeAlert.org to expose the illegal operations of 5Linx and we will continue to update you -
"Buy the ticket, take the ride."
PyramidSchemeAlert.org? Why didn’t I think of that?
This whole thread should be made widely available somehow -- perhaps by putting it on its own page with a catchy title so that Google can search for it, and people can find it.
5linx is a completely false and useless program. in the last year, I LOST $20,000 in money to "selling" avoid this. Trust me, this site is nothing to mess around with. Avoid this at all costs.
I'm new to this subject and am investigating 5linx. So far, most of the negative comments are either unfounded, or unsupported. However, I'd love to read more from Todd Jergins on his comment about losing so much money recently. Please elaborate, and if you could, please tell us who your "upline" (or whatever it's called) is.
Thanks.
I am laughing so hard and I'm just blown away by the amount of negative energy on this board!
Society says go to school, get a career, retire 40 years later and live happily ever after. Yeah right... what's a better solution because clearly that doesn't work!!!
The main point society chooses to conveniently omit is that for the majority of people, retirement isn't too pretty and the average american is currently living a life of quiet desparation.
The number one reason married couples divorce is over finances.
Still, everyone pays into the big companies' "continuity programs", you know: insurance, PG&E, cable, home phone, cell phones,
home security, etc. and it's okay to pay those companies and not call them pyramids. That's called conditining!
Fact: everyone pays cable until they die, you can never pay cable off in full!
Speaking of pyramids, no one calls the government, their own boss (the etymology of this word in Dutch is baas or master)or their employer, the educational system and most everything else that has a hierarchy a pyramid but the moment someone mentions free enterprise (which this country is founded on) all the
"anti-pyramiders" go nuts!
Is the insurance industy a pyramid scam? What are the law of averages you'll get into an auto accident?
5Linx like any other Direct Marketing company or MLM works because the power lies in "word of mouth marketing."
We do it everyday we just don't usually get paid for it but we're so backwards as a society that when we have the opportunity to get paid for referring something we clam up.
Is that our fear of sales? Do we associate selling with being a "used car salesmen?"
History shows us that many of us were fearless salespeople around the age of 5 but as we got older something happened. Kids know how to sell... they get what they want even when you don't want to give it to them.
as adults, networkers fail many times because these are people who have never owned a business. Now they do and many do not invest the time and energy it takes to be successful in their business.
Naturally, some of them take
"short-cuts" and mislead people out of desperation to make money.
What they fail to realize is that if they've never made $10,000, $15,000 or more a month as a networker how are they going to do it now?
Futhermore, the real estate, mortgage, insurance and other sales industries all have to deal with HIGH turnover and corruption too.
That's because "unscrupulous types" and "dreamers" are drawn to the allure of big pay days. That doesn't mean those industries are neccessarily bad, a handful of shady individuals are.
In my opinion until 5linx or any other company gets in the news because of undesirable practices, I won't generalize and judge them because that's eerily remeniscent of the the witch hunts that went on years ago. It's called fear and ignorance.
Simply put, if your marriage goes bad does that mean all women or men are no good? Of course not but if you think it does then you're taking responsibility away from yourself and you're placing it on someone else... that's called "all or none" thinking and it can be very dangerous!
Long live america and the freedom to choose!
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Just to state a fact, 5linx is a scam, I just left the company after finding out that there business model is in fact illegal.
They allow a Rep to move customers from them to anyone under them. Which allows them to get paid. Plus did i mention that the customer is in fact a fake customer. Yes they allow the customer to be there own customer.
Also they have alot of rep who is known for stealing out people credit card and ssn info and signing them up for service that they never asked for.
And thats just the tip. They break all kind of local, Fed, FCC and import/export laws.
When it comes to 5linx, READ THE FINE PRINT.
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One thing I can tell you about 5linx is that they will promise you the world and find a reason never to pay out! They promise "quick-start" bonuses of up to $4,000 and even after you hit your bonus they will always find a way to NOT pay you one way or another. The co-founders are a bunch of liars and will do anything to screw the reps. The company's motto of "reps first" is complete bs. 5Linx is nothing but a pyramid scheme which is bound to spiral in to a pile of shit and go out of business. Do some due diligence prior to joining this scam company. Don't waste your $499 on nothing. Unless you scam 20 people a month into joining your business you wont make shit. The residuals are about 5cents per voip so good luck building your residual income.
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Interesting article here.
Really, in my experience, most that declare any MLM a scam are those who might have tried it for a bit, and stopped.
Nope, I'm personally not in 5linx, but I do think it is a good company with a solid product.
One of the biggest failures of it, is that their business builders (along with 95% of others in the industry) rely on hype and telling others this is a "can't miss opportunity" instead of focusing on connecting with people who's needs they can fill and giving them a solution for it.
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5LINX is a member of DSA (www.dsa.org). I'm not affiliated with 5LINX, but was presented with an opportunity. Right now I'm doing my due diligence in researching the company and talking to people I know PERSONALLY and trust who are affiliated with the company. I'm not sold yet, but it's starting to look somewhat legit.
pos1: wow, you are a glutton for punishment. you seriously got your ass whooped in your exchanges with the swede. wow.
Great post. I think one of the basic things that we should know know is that we must always make sure that you are safe in every transactions you wanted to indulge with.
My how times have changed.
Bravo, whoever wrote this is the shit! Positive1, you are retarded lol
Thanks for sharing such an interesting post with us. You have made some valuable points which are very useful for all readers
So this blog was written in 2007...what is the verdict there should be a follow up after so much time.
Good luck to you then!
Stay away from 5links and pyramid schemes. They are only interested in your $500 up-front fee. You think they really care if you succeed? LOL!
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Thanks for the great dialog regarding 5Linx and other 'MLM' companies. The communication regarding the pro's/con's were great. I respect both positive1 and the 5linx poster.
BUT COME ON 5Linx, you cannot tell me that you're not a MLM who cares more for people signing up then selling the worthless products.
AND COME ON 5Linx, you can't sit there and tell us that you do not use religion to gain the trust of your targets. All I see from most of the video's, websites, facebook, and blogs is " Thank god for this 'opportunity'"
Your MLM companies pray on the weak and uneducated. Makes me sick.
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I usually give rotten apples 0% but i'm bored and see a lot of foolishness so ill just say I'm educating you fools.
I won't even give facts because it will get switched around like what was done to postive1 and/or ignored but i will give you a definition, and i can guarantee you guys know nothing about "pyramid schemes". First its a pyramid structure in everything from your family tree, church, mlm, corporate america. So is your family a pyramid scheme? No. A pyramid scheme is a non-sustainable business model that involves promising participants payment or services, primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, rather than supplying any real investment or sale of products or services to the public. So please stop throwing "pyramid scheme" around just because you don't understand how people are making money and showing others how to make money. Its 2 type of people who look at any mlm company, people who think they can and think they can't (AND THEY BOTH ARE RIGHT). Mlm isn't the ONLY way out of traditional ways of making money but it is A way out.
What is the problem for thanking God for an opportunity that allows you not to work the traditional way and finally having financial freedom? I didn't know people are restricted from thanking God if it deals with a certain type of business.
One more question ... For the anonymous one and any others who have said you can never get to the top of this company ... I believe the post was from 2008 thats 3+ years ... so since then are you CEO of the company that employed you?
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